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richard
#1 Posted : 06 October 2012 10:18:49(UTC)
Richard

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Last Wednesday, I picked up on the Daily Workers reaction to the Fleet Street reporting of the early stages of the London Blitz, publishing as a "taster" a copy of a cartoon which commented on the the game being played by the press.

In this, there is an allusion to the untold story of how, as a matter of deliberate policy, the government refused to provide the people of the East End adequate protection from air raids. But the point of the barb was to draw attention to the fact that the media then actively colluding in suppressing the consequences of that policy, presenting a distorted and entirely untrue picture of events.



Read here...

http://www.eureferendum....ogview.aspx?blogno=83210
Peter Mauley
#2 Posted : 06 October 2012 13:20:55(UTC)
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Perhaps a little off topic, but it would be interesting to learn how well the Germans protected their city-dwellers once allied raids became serious.
richard
#3 Posted : 06 October 2012 13:50:21(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Peter Mauley Go to Quoted Post
Perhaps a little off topic, but it would be interesting to learn how well the Germans protected their city-dwellers once allied raids became serious.


When they put their minds to it ... extremely well ...

http://commons.wikimedia...lt&search=hochbunker

http://www.hojobeck.de/hochbunker01.html


Originally, protection was extended to women and children only ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-raid_shelter

And, of course, Jews were not allowed entry.




vincent
#4 Posted : 06 October 2012 15:52:11(UTC)
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Fascinating stuff as usual.On your UK communist party point I found this quote.....

Quote:
The CPGB put out a "War on Two Fronts" policy statement. It called for a real war against fascism and a political war against the government. It also demanded nationalisation of the arms industry and greater democracy in the armed forces.


http://www.spartacus.sch...net.co.uk/Pcommunist.htm


The communists must have been treading a very fine line for a while,as one policy was in danger of undermining the other.Apperently there was much relief in the ranks when Churchill agreed to help Russia after Hitler invaded in 1941.
richard
#5 Posted : 06 October 2012 16:58:22(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: vincent Go to Quoted Post

Fascinating stuff as usual.On your UK communist party point I found this quote.....

Quote:
The CPGB put out a "War on Two Fronts" policy statement. It called for a real war against fascism and a political war against the government. It also demanded nationalisation of the arms industry and greater democracy in the armed forces.


http://www.spartacus.sch...net.co.uk/Pcommunist.htm


The communists must have been treading a very fine line for a while,as one policy was in danger of undermining the other. Apparently there was much relief in the ranks when Churchill agreed to help Russia after Hitler invaded in 1941.



There is an interesting gap in that account, and the events leading up to January 1941, where a "People's Convention", sought a "people's peace with the working people of all countries". It was shortly after than that the Daily Worker was banned, the reason for that being to then permit the banning of Communist Party leaflets. The convention itself had been launched on the back of the "shelter war", capitalising on the success of the tubes rebellion.

 1 user thanked richard for this useful post.
vincent on 06/10/2012(UTC)
vincent
#6 Posted : 06 October 2012 17:36:47(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: richard Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: vincent Go to Quoted Post

Fascinating stuff as usual.On your UK communist party point I found this quote.....

Quote:
The CPGB put out a "War on Two Fronts" policy statement. It called for a real war against fascism and a political war against the government. It also demanded nationalisation of the arms industry and greater democracy in the armed forces.


http://www.spartacus.sch...net.co.uk/Pcommunist.htm


The communists must have been treading a very fine line for a while,as one policy was in danger of undermining the other. Apparently there was much relief in the ranks when Churchill agreed to help Russia after Hitler invaded in 1941.



There is an interesting gap in that account, and the events leading up to January 1941, where a "People's Convention", sought a "people's peace with the working people of all countries". It was shortly after than that the Daily Worker was banned, the reason for that being to then permit the banning of Communist Party leaflets. The convention itself had been launched on the back of the "shelter war", capitalising on the success of the tubes rebellion.



Opportunism on the back of a working class rumblings maybe?.As you have already pointed out, it was the first time people power, demonstrated so dynamically on the streets, had actually succeded in getting the government to back off and change a policy(on use of the underground as shelters.)

I did find it interesting that the communist party was so split on the Soviet-Nazi non Agression pact.Members were torn by Stalin's shock move.It left them having to directly confront the UK government to conform with Stalin's new stance.I was obviously deeply unsettling to carry out such an about face as well as being a dangerous thing to do in a war.

Edited by user 06 October 2012 17:37:56(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

richard
#7 Posted : 06 October 2012 18:25:40(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: vincent Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: richard Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: vincent Go to Quoted Post

Fascinating stuff as usual.On your UK communist party point I found this quote.....

Quote:
The CPGB put out a "War on Two Fronts" policy statement. It called for a real war against fascism and a political war against the government. It also demanded nationalisation of the arms industry and greater democracy in the armed forces.


http://www.spartacus.sch...net.co.uk/Pcommunist.htm


The communists must have been treading a very fine line for a while,as one policy was in danger of undermining the other. Apparently there was much relief in the ranks when Churchill agreed to help Russia after Hitler invaded in 1941.



There is an interesting gap in that account, and the events leading up to January 1941, where a "People's Convention", sought a "people's peace with the working people of all countries". It was shortly after than that the Daily Worker was banned, the reason for that being to then permit the banning of Communist Party leaflets. The convention itself had been launched on the back of the "shelter war", capitalising on the success of the tubes rebellion.



Opportunism on the back of a working class rumblings maybe?.As you have already pointed out, it was the first time people power, demonstrated so dynamically on the streets, had actually succeded in getting the government to back off and change a policy(on use of the underground as shelters.)

I did find it interesting that the communist party was so split on the Soviet-Nazi non Aggression pact.Members were torn by Stalin's shock move.It left them having to directly confront the UK government to conform with Stalin's new stance.I was obviously deeply unsettling to carry out such an about face as well as being a dangerous thing to do in a war.




Undoubtedly, the shelter campaign was quite genuine in its objectives. It stemmed from the Spanish Civil War, and in particular the bombing of Barcelona ...

http://iberianature.com/...he-bombing-of-barcelona/

While the city was used by the Italians and later the Germans as a test-bed for bombing civilian populations, it also became the test-bed for shelter, the city becoming the first ever to provide deep shelters. Since they worked in practice, the British Communists who had seen them in use knew that many of the theoretical objections raised by Anderson and his advisers were wrong-headed.

However, after the Communists had won the battle to occupy the tubes, they then used their success as a platform for more and greater things. That's where the People's Convention of January 1941 came in, one of the objectives being to bring the war to a stop. That much was opportunism. But that worked both ways ... it gave the government the opportunity to restrict the activities of the Communists.



Brian
#8 Posted : 06 October 2012 19:22:49(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: richard Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Peter Mauley Go to Quoted Post
Perhaps a little off topic, but it would be interesting to learn how well the Germans protected their city-dwellers once allied raids became serious.


When they put their minds to it ... extremely well ...

http://commons.wikimedia...lt&search=hochbunker

http://www.hojobeck.de/hochbunker01.html


Originally, protection was extended to women and children only ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-raid_shelter

And, of course, Jews were not allowed entry.



Germany had established its ARP organisation, which became the Luftschutze, in 1926 and evacuated children to the countryside from 1940 onwards under the Kinderlandverschickung effort run by the Hitler Youth.
Nothing is impossible so long as everybody does exactly what I tell them.
vargs999
#9 Posted : 07 October 2012 00:29:56(UTC)
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The CPGB was an interesting beast. Scuppered by its dogged compliance with the Third International -- i.e. Stalin's foreign policy -- but yet imbued with that same nonconformist English awkward squad independence so eloquently embodied by our own Dr North. As a long-time lurker at this blog, and a Marxist to boot, I'm a little bit pleased that Richard has discovered this particular strand of convergence.

I'm aware that most readers and commentators here would regard themselves as right wing. However, there's a direct line of descent from William Cobbett to Orwell via Engels which expresses the same rage against plutocracy which informs much of the EUReferendum output.

So, count me as an unlikely fellow traveller.
richard
#10 Posted : 07 October 2012 06:59:23(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: vargs999 Go to Quoted Post
The CPGB was an interesting beast. Scuppered by its dogged compliance with the Third International -- i.e. Stalin's foreign policy -- but yet imbued with that same nonconformist English awkward squad independence so eloquently embodied by our own Dr North. As a long-time lurker at this blog, and a Marxist to boot, I'm a little bit pleased that Richard has discovered this particular strand of convergence.

I'm aware that most readers and commentators here would regard themselves as right wing. However, there's a direct line of descent from William Cobbett to Orwell via Engels which expresses the same rage against plutocracy which informs much of the EUReferendum output.

So, count me as an unlikely fellow traveller.




Welcome to the forum. And yes, the Daily Worker is a fine contradiction ... I think you've summed it up beautifully. Doubtless, had the revolution ever come, the editorial staff would have been the first to get their bookings to the gulags.

vincent
#11 Posted : 07 October 2012 10:33:20(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: richard Go to Quoted Post




While the city was used by the Italians and later the Germans as a test-bed for bombing civilian populations, it also became the test-bed for shelter, the city becoming the first ever to provide deep shelters. Since they worked in practice, the British Communists who had seen them in use knew that many of the theoretical objections raised by Anderson and his advisers were wrong-headed.

However, after the Communists had won the battle to occupy the tubes, they then used their success as a platform for more and greater things. That's where the People's Convention of January 1941 came in, one of the objectives being to bring the war to a stop. That much was opportunism. But that worked both ways ... it gave the government the opportunity to restrict the activities of the Communists.





That would figure as many would have fought in the Spanish Civil War and had first hand experience of being bombed also explains why they had the heads up on the UK government...they knew what was coming.

Perversely enough by trying to stop the war they were actually playing into Hitler's objective of regime change,and a suing for peace.

vincent
#12 Posted : 07 October 2012 10:35:20(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: vargs999 Go to Quoted Post
The CPGB was an interesting beast. Scuppered by its dogged compliance with the Third International -- i.e. Stalin's foreign policy -- but yet imbued with that same nonconformist English awkward squad independence so eloquently embodied by our own Dr North. As a long-time lurker at this blog, and a Marxist to boot, I'm a little bit pleased that Richard has discovered this particular strand of convergence.

I'm aware that most readers and commentators here would regard themselves as right wing. However, there's a direct line of descent from William Cobbett to Orwell via Engels which expresses the same rage against plutocracy which informs much of the EUReferendum output.

So, count me as an unlikely fellow traveller.


Got to say I was coming to similar conclusions myself,the parallels are there to see.BigGrin

Edited by user 07 October 2012 10:36:20(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Ravenscar
#13 Posted : 07 October 2012 18:15:50(UTC)
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Quote:
The CPGB was an interesting beast. Scuppered by its dogged compliance with the Third International -- i.e. Stalin's foreign policy -- but yet imbued with that same nonconformist English awkward squad independence so eloquently embodied by our own Dr North. As a long-time lurker at this blog, and a Marxist to boot, I'm a little bit pleased that Richard has discovered this particular strand of convergence.

I'm aware that most readers and commentators here would regard themselves as right wing. However, there's a direct line of descent from William Cobbett to Orwell via Engels which expresses the same rage against plutocracy which informs much of the EUReferendum output.

So, count me as an unlikely fellow traveller.




Orwell, was a remarkable fellow and his penmanship was not half bad either.

Plus, there is a saying which goes, the enemy of my enemy, is my friend.

Welcome friend.
Brian
#14 Posted : 07 October 2012 18:23:46(UTC)
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The 31 May 1915 raid was by Zeppelin L32. The first raid by an aeroplane was on 28 November 1916 by an LVG CII. The first Gotha raid on London was on 13 June 1917. Because of losses due to increasingly suucessful AA and interception, Gotha raids were flown at night from September onwards (a tactic repeated in1940).

Edited by user 07 October 2012 18:47:56(UTC)  | Reason: Gotha G.I prototype flew 30 January 1915 so "Gothas not yet built let alone flown" was wro

Nothing is impossible so long as everybody does exactly what I tell them.
vincent
#15 Posted : 07 October 2012 18:25:34(UTC)
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Just had a terrible thought.....in 200 years time when some dicatator has massacred millions in the name of referism,will Dr Richard North be denegrated(or venerated depending on your view) similar to the way Marx or even Mao is today. Crying

Maybe should keep my thoughts to myself.Cool

Edited by user 07 October 2012 18:27:39(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Brian
#16 Posted : 07 October 2012 18:33:48(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: vincent Go to Quoted Post
Just had a terrible thought.....in 200 years time when some dicatator has massacred millions in the name of referism,will Dr Richard North be denegrated(or venerated depending on your view) similar to the way Marx or even Mao is today. Crying

Maybe should keep my thoughts to myself.Cool


Surely referism means that the dictator would first have to get the genocide budget approved by the electorate? And isn't a dictator impossible with referism?

Antique alert - in two hundred years time original enamel referism badges will be highly prized collectables. BigGrin

Edited by user 07 October 2012 18:36:26(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Nothing is impossible so long as everybody does exactly what I tell them.
vincent
#17 Posted : 07 October 2012 18:46:47(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Brian Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: vincent Go to Quoted Post
Just had a terrible thought.....in 200 years time when some dicatator has massacred millions in the name of referism,will Dr Richard North be denegrated(or venerated depending on your view) similar to the way Marx or even Mao is today. Crying

Maybe should keep my thoughts to myself.Cool


Surely referism means that the dictator would first have to get the genocide budget approved by the electorate? And isn't a dictator impossible with referism?

Antique alert - in two hundred years time original enamel referism badges will be highly prized collectables. BigGrin

Well I am pretty sure Marx would of been of the same opinion at the time......he'd no doubt be horrified at what has been done in his name.Us humans are pretty good at distorting the message and getting a tad zealous about things whether it be political or religious.

PS Are we giving out badges now?..where can I get one???BigGrin



richard
#18 Posted : 07 October 2012 19:10:56(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Brian Go to Quoted Post
The 31 May 1915 raid was by Zeppelin L32. The first raid by an aeroplane was on 28 November 1916 by an LVG CII. The first Gotha raid on London was on 13 June 1917. Because of losses due to increasingly suucessful AA and interception, Gotha raids were flown at night from September onwards (a tactic repeated in1940).


Thanks for that ... I'll correct the text.

richard
#19 Posted : 07 October 2012 19:13:39(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Brian Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: vincent Go to Quoted Post
Just had a terrible thought.....in 200 years time when some dicatator has massacred millions in the name of referism,will Dr Richard North be denegrated(or venerated depending on your view) similar to the way Marx or even Mao is today. Crying

Maybe should keep my thoughts to myself.Cool


Surely referism means that the dictator would first have to get the genocide budget approved by the electorate? And isn't a dictator impossible with referism?

Antique alert - in two hundred years time original enamel referism badges will be highly prized collectables. BigGrin


The best possible outcome is that Referism is adopted, and no one can remember who started it all.

Brian
#20 Posted : 08 October 2012 14:54:49(UTC)
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Government policy on shelters was also affected by a cross-party commitment to disarmament and the League of Nations after WWI - after the war to end all wars and the LoN prohibition on settling international disputes by war, a nationwide deep shelter building programme was unacceptable in the twenties after the Geddes Axe and the Ten Year Rule, and even more so after the Depression. When rearmament began, the justification for it was deterrence hence the build up of Bomber Command, again building deep shelters would have pulled the rug from under deterrence.

It was typically hypocritical of government to deny deep shelters to civilians but build the Citadel and the Whitehall War Rooms in London and spend millions on the vast Corsham munitions dump and underground aero-engine complex in Wiltshire and elsewhere.
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